Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

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ToKamaK
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Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by ToKamaK » Fri May 09, 2014 9:46 pm

I'm currently using the following keybindings for differents aspects of my movements:

Code: Select all

Stance down - Ctrl
Stance up   - Alt
Jump        - Space
For now, Stance up and Jump are used in disjoint cases:
  • you can Stance up only when on the floor or crouching
  • you can Jump only when up
I was wondering ... What would you think about merging Stance up and Jump in only one binding that would carry the idea of Going up ? I find this way more ergonomic than using two separate buttons.

As ergonomics depends on the user, I'd rather put this idea in Discussion than Suggestions.


(Not to mention that I sometimes feel quite uncumfortable with this binding :D )



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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by wootwoots » Sat May 10, 2014 1:44 am

I added some similar suggestion into a control topic i'am going to copy and paste

It would be nice to do like in many fps ( so BF3-4 more recently ) and have 1 key for crouch, and another one for prone, having the hold option too
And work like that is hold option is not activated :
- 1st crouch / prone press -> crouch / prone, 2nd press of the same key -> stand
- If jump key pressed during crouch / prone -> stand
- Of course if during prone you press crouch, it go crouch and crouch -> prone.

for me a such system is more intuitive than the current one :)

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Edarius
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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by Edarius » Sat May 10, 2014 8:37 pm

In my opinion, DayZ is a very good example in that matter. I'll take example on my keybindings in this post, don't forget I'm using AZERTY keyboard.

You have three buttons to choose your attitude: W, X and C (Z, X and C for QWERTY).
For each of them, you have a default speed and a secondary speed. You use the secondary speed with Left Shift. You permanently switch the default speed with a double press on Left Shift.
You cannot jump in DayZ, but we can figure something simple for DR. For example, the "jump" button (space bar) has not effect while prone and make you jump while standing up or crouching.

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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by CAHAI » Sun May 11, 2014 11:43 am

the double tap approach for some keys should not be overlooked - I see CROUCH HOLD and JUMP FROM CROUCH as viable actions

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ToKamaK
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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by ToKamaK » Sun May 11, 2014 1:49 pm

Ok, so I was right to fear this discussion could unearth various schools of "moving around in FPS". :-s

The logic followed by the game makes sense for the moment. IRL, it is easier to keep a stance than switching from a stance to another. With the same logic, it is easier to start and stop sprinting than keeping up the sprint, hence Hold to sprint.
Moreover, IRL it is not that easy to jump while prone or crouch.

The double tap approach is tempting but may be quite hard to calibrate. See for example, if you are hiding behind a crate and hold/unhold crouch to fire whatever is on the other side of the crate, you may tap twice too quickly and beeing surprisingly stuck on the ground.

Not sure if OldSnake projects some specific platform gameplay(1) but IMHO, the best way would be to allow each school in the options. That would not be that easy to implement but one way that could work well would be the following.

Using the keybinding menu, we can imagine having various entries for the various schools:
  • crouch (hold to crouch)
  • crouch (press once to crouch, a second time to uncrouch)
  • prone (hold to prone)
  • prone (press once to prone, a second time to unprone)
  • stance down (if stand up, press once to crouch, a second time to prone)
  • stance up (strict inverse of stance down)
  • jump (strict jump)
  • "going up" (if prone, press once to crouch, a second time to stand, a third time to jump)
However this solution can lead to a mess in the keybinding menu that could afraid newcommers (but once it is configured, it should be Ok for everybody :) ).

There is also a possibility to make some checkboxes in the gameplay options:
  • Hold sprint to sprint
  • Hold crouch to crouch
  • ...
but I am not certain it would be as easy to implement as the various keybindings.


(1) For those who remember Half-life, near the end of the game, you get a jump module you can activate using a combination of crouch and jump. It is a kind of platform gameplay I am thinking.

There is more than one way to do it !

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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by bwc153 » Mon May 12, 2014 8:38 am

Edarius wrote:In my opinion, DayZ is a very good example in that matter. I'll take example on my keybindings in this post, don't forget I'm using AZERTY keyboard.

You have three buttons to choose your attitude: W, X and C (Z, X and C for QWERTY).
For each of them, you have a default speed and a secondary speed. You use the secondary speed with Left Shift. You permanently switch the default speed with a double press on Left Shift.
You cannot jump in DayZ, but we can figure something simple for DR. For example, the "jump" button (space bar) has not effect while prone and make you jump while standing up or crouching.
*ARMA. The game is ARMA, DayZ is a mod. ;)

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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by Edarius » Mon May 12, 2014 11:10 pm

No, DayZ is a game, now.
(You can delete both of those useless posts. :D)

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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by Applejaxc » Wed May 14, 2014 4:06 am

Are you suggesting that the jump button move us "Up" from crouch/prone, or that we should be able to jump while crouched?

For jumped while crouched, that's completely unrealistic and silly.

It is completely counterintuitive to the experience any FPS has ever had to not differentiate between your jump and stand up buttons. To take CoD/BF/Halo, for example: When crouched, hitting jump causes you to stand up, then jump on a console. This is fine, because there's limited space and that's how it's been done for years.

On PC, however, you have spacebar and your crouch toggle to move up/down and jump. While jump causes you to stand, crouch-up doesn't cause you to jump.
I'd be fine with the jump binding having the dual functionality of stand/jump, but there always needs to be two different controls, regardless of the overlap.

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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by ToKamaK » Fri May 16, 2014 8:57 pm

Applejaxc wrote:Are you suggesting that the jump button move us "Up" from crouch/prone, or that we should be able to jump while crouched?
My initial post was suggesting that the jump button move us "Up" from crouch/prone. Sorry if I've been a bit unclear concerning this point. :-s

I wanted to raise an ergonomic issue as the survival gameplay makes the gamer last potentially during hours behind the computer screen. Although it would be a shame to use complex combinations of keys instead of the whole keyboard, the gameplay should not be too complex for the hand too (hello ArmA).
Applejaxc wrote:I'd be fine with the jump binding having the dual functionality of stand/jump, but there always needs to be two different controls, regardless of the overlap.
This is plain wise. At the very end, the gamer should have the choice between the various policies.

Applejaxc wrote:For jumped while crouched, that's completely unrealistic and silly.
Agreed, it may be a good fitness excercise, but it is pain in the legs and that is not the point of a survival game. :-B

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Re: Gameplay question - merge Jump and Stance Up

Post by OldSnake » Sat May 17, 2014 1:30 pm

My initial post was suggesting that the jump button move us "Up" from crouch/prone
Done for Alpha 10

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